Since "It has been correlated with higher levels of self-esteem, lower levels of depression, and greater school belonging among LGBTQ youth" for trans girls to participate in girls sports leagues, what are they doing for all the trans boys, pretty much none of whom will be able to earn a spot on the boys teams? Are they also playing on the girls teams? Or are they just shuffled aside in this debate despite the fact that they must be suffering all the same mental distress the trans girls would be if asked to participate with people of the same birth sex?
Also, has anyone bothered to survey the girls who have been displaced by having male born people on their teams or who have self excluded due having boys in their locker rooms? What about their self esteem, happiness or sense of belonging?
I would ask about the "cis" boys, but they seem pretty much largely unaffected by any of this.
You point out the obvious sexism of these trans advocacy organizations. Williams Institute could give a flying rip about females who identify as male or nonbinary. As I mentioned, this group is only useful to 1) show how inclusion of trans athletes in girls' sports is no problem, and 2) inflate the numbers of "trans" athletes affected by "sports bans." Yes of course, females who identify as male or nonbinary usually continue to participate on the girls' team because they know they are not competitive on the boys' team. This group awkwardly proves that trans-identified kids can get the benefit of sports even though they do not participate according to their gender identity. Which flies in the face of Williams Institute's and Trevor Projects' whole message—that boys who identify as girls MUST participate in girls' sports or they'll be sad and depressed and contemplate suicide. Elana Redfield at Williams Institute suggested I read Fair Play by American Proress.org. That org stated specifically that "cisgender girls" are not harmed by inclusion of males. Zero evidence of that, just stated it as if true
Elides over instances of trans identified boys & men bullying girls & women (Becky Pepper-Jackson hardly poster child for trans inclusion with his sexual harassment of team-mates), besides breaching the safety & dignity of single-sex spaces & ousting females from their own sporting category & chance of competitive success.
Typo in essay: should be "there"
"Remember all the times you’ve heard activists and activist media say “their are so few” trans-identified athletes?"
We keep being told, "This isn't relevant because it's such a SMALL NUMBER of 'trans' athletes!"
Well, if their presence isn't important, than neither is their purported suffering. Let's instead focus on the large number of women and girls whose lives are being negatively affected by the incursion of men onto what should be single-sex sports teams.
I know the gender ideologues want to have it both ways, but they can't. "Trans" athletes either matter or they don't.
Misleading arguments based on the small numbers of trans athletes also don't acknowledge the large number of girls and women negatively affected by their inclusion, as Sarah's previously covered:
Admitting trans identified males to the female category destroys its integrity: correct number to be accommodated is none. Competitive sport can be organised into open and unisex categories additionally, but without a ring-fenced female category there's nowhere for girls and women to go. Trans identified females and those proclaiming nonbinary/gender nonconforming identities are already legitimately included, so there's no "banning" of trans athletes, as long as they're the correct sex. The greatest good of the greatest number is a reasonable utilitarian basis for decision-making.
Exactly. And though their exclusion in girls sports only affects the single individual, their inclusive affects multiple people in both locker rooms and on both competing teams. But the girls with vaginas are still expected to acquiesce to the girls with penises.... same as it ever was.
A simple idea: all statements made by sex mimic advocacy are purely to waste time and deflect actual recognition that the men of concern are actually men.
Compulsions prevent people from doing things which counter the compulsion, and stating facts about sex mimicry is impossible for sex mimics, by definition, much as anorectics can’t speak about perception of body size, or alcoholics about the dangers of alcohol.
They have been manufacturing LGBT data since at least 1999. There is a study that was published in 2001 that is the first I am aware of that tracks the US LGBTQ population in US schools. They open with claiming there are 2 million LGBT student in schools. The study used a whopping 140 lgbt teens, 8 who were said to be 'trans.' A huge deal was made of it and the study was dubbed "Hatred in the Hallways." It used to be housed at the US Dept of Justice but has been removed (or maybe archived). It also sits at the UN. It is very eye opening. Global NGOs like Human Rights Watch were involved and a prominent US NGO called the Family Acceptance Project. This appears to be the roots of all this bogus manufactured 'data.' They cannot prove a thing without numbers and they have made it come true. https://margox.substack.com/p/traumatizing-american-families?r=1kuq0
Believing that an obviously female bodied and medically transitioned MtF, in terms of overall phenotype and secondary sex characteristics, e g Rebekah Brusehoff, would fit in male sports is so absurdly dishonest it cannot be believed.
Apart from missing out on the camaraderie and socialization any other young woman would expect, forcing her to play male sports would be in all but the rarest of situations make her just a heavily bullied sexual assault target, and who will be just as uncompetitive against males as any other young woman who underwent a female puberty.
Y’all know exactly what you are doing, and will deny dozens of qualitative reports from real humans whenever it’s fun to do so but then weaponize a given post incarceration trans faker for all it’s worth whenever it can be used.
Just pure caste system nativism just like every other right wing movement.
Did you read the Washington Post article about Eliza Munshi? Had taken puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones so he outwardly had some feminine characteristics. Munshi was, in his own words, "welcomed" on the boys team. He expressed no negative experiences at all. No bullying, no harassment. He was accepted for he he is—a boy who identifies as a girl. Camaraderie, sense of belonging, physical challenge and skills acquisition—got it all. And if you know anything about track, you know that the boys and girls work out together and attend the same meets. Munshi was able to hang with friends of both sexes. He was not a top level discus performer. He could just be a mediocre athlete, or he may have hobbled his performance by suppressing his testosterone and taking estrogen which his male body is not designed for. That was his choice. Choices have consequences. What's your take on Munshi's experience? Also: the only "female bodied" people who have gone through "female puberty" are females. That's a biological term describing people whose body from conception followed a development pathway around the production of large gametes, eggs. A male can alter his hormones and get breast implants and facial surgery to appear more feminine. He is still a male who has altered his hormones and had facial surgery. He's not female. That's not "nativism" it's reality. Girls and women are female, the other kind of human. Like boys and men, girls and women deserve their own sports
I appreciate your consistency. Yesterday I saw a young trans woman on here asserting that she should be able to play on the girls’ team, but also that her FtM friend on T should also be able to play on the girls’ team because “it’s the only safe team for queer kids.” Which made me go “hm.”
Boys team. Socially that is their in group and the vast majority of the reason to even care about high school or grade school sports is camaraderie and exercise. And as long as they have medically transitioned even some, they will fit physically with the boys too.
Mack Beggs was an obvious example of this happening the “wrong” way. Also, TUEs for testosterone replacement are fully compatible with playing men’s sports, even outside of the trans context.
Tell that to Nikki Hiltz, Quinn, and the trans-identified female Swedish skier who is currently competing in the Winter Olympics on the women's team. All of them could have taken testosterone and tried out for the men's team. They know that, even juiced to the gills, they would have no career as a male athlete. The male-female performance gap is so wide and involves so many other factors than hormone levels, hormone tinkering is utterly ineffective at eliminating that sex gap, regardless of which direction you're going. TUEs for testosterone in men's sports are extremely rare. Exogenous testosterone in the male category "outside of the trans context" is called doping
Not really. You can look at the East German women. Kornelia Ender, for example, would have been third on the East German men’s olympic team in some events, which is about what you would expect given women’s lower sports participation levels but if biological advantages were neutralized. And the E German men were likely also on roids ironically.
Yes really. You're going to have to provide some actual stats on Kornelia Ender vs Olympic men's times. I'm glad you didn't mention the perennial example Chris Mosier, a trans-identified female who did not qualify but was given a place on an Olympic men's race walking team and, despite being roided, was two hours behind the top competitors. Iszac Henig, a trans-identified female swimmer, competed in the Ivy League at the same time as Lia Thomas. But there was zero outcry about Henig because, for the first year after she cut off her breasts, she continued to swim on the women's team (without T). She was one of top females in the conference. The second year she decided to join the men's team. She took T but merely participated on the men's team. Nowhere near competitive. In interviews, she admitted how hard this was to completely give up competitiveness.
Couple questions.
Since "It has been correlated with higher levels of self-esteem, lower levels of depression, and greater school belonging among LGBTQ youth" for trans girls to participate in girls sports leagues, what are they doing for all the trans boys, pretty much none of whom will be able to earn a spot on the boys teams? Are they also playing on the girls teams? Or are they just shuffled aside in this debate despite the fact that they must be suffering all the same mental distress the trans girls would be if asked to participate with people of the same birth sex?
Also, has anyone bothered to survey the girls who have been displaced by having male born people on their teams or who have self excluded due having boys in their locker rooms? What about their self esteem, happiness or sense of belonging?
I would ask about the "cis" boys, but they seem pretty much largely unaffected by any of this.
You point out the obvious sexism of these trans advocacy organizations. Williams Institute could give a flying rip about females who identify as male or nonbinary. As I mentioned, this group is only useful to 1) show how inclusion of trans athletes in girls' sports is no problem, and 2) inflate the numbers of "trans" athletes affected by "sports bans." Yes of course, females who identify as male or nonbinary usually continue to participate on the girls' team because they know they are not competitive on the boys' team. This group awkwardly proves that trans-identified kids can get the benefit of sports even though they do not participate according to their gender identity. Which flies in the face of Williams Institute's and Trevor Projects' whole message—that boys who identify as girls MUST participate in girls' sports or they'll be sad and depressed and contemplate suicide. Elana Redfield at Williams Institute suggested I read Fair Play by American Proress.org. That org stated specifically that "cisgender girls" are not harmed by inclusion of males. Zero evidence of that, just stated it as if true
Link to Fair Play Progress.org:
https://www.americanprogress.org/article/fair-play/
Elides over instances of trans identified boys & men bullying girls & women (Becky Pepper-Jackson hardly poster child for trans inclusion with his sexual harassment of team-mates), besides breaching the safety & dignity of single-sex spaces & ousting females from their own sporting category & chance of competitive success.
Typo in essay: should be "there"
"Remember all the times you’ve heard activists and activist media say “their are so few” trans-identified athletes?"
Heh good catch
You all know that cases like Mack Beggs are well known and not uncommon. Why do you think transitioned FtM aren’t playing on men’s teams??
Beggs is uncommon. Please name the many others
Not uncommon? Don't be obtuse.
I’m not. There are more college athletes who were FtM and played on male teams than the other way.
I would need to see proof of that.
We keep being told, "This isn't relevant because it's such a SMALL NUMBER of 'trans' athletes!"
Well, if their presence isn't important, than neither is their purported suffering. Let's instead focus on the large number of women and girls whose lives are being negatively affected by the incursion of men onto what should be single-sex sports teams.
I know the gender ideologues want to have it both ways, but they can't. "Trans" athletes either matter or they don't.
Misleading arguments based on the small numbers of trans athletes also don't acknowledge the large number of girls and women negatively affected by their inclusion, as Sarah's previously covered:
https://www.thefemalecategory.com/p/theres-so-few-nope-theres-so-many
Admitting trans identified males to the female category destroys its integrity: correct number to be accommodated is none. Competitive sport can be organised into open and unisex categories additionally, but without a ring-fenced female category there's nowhere for girls and women to go. Trans identified females and those proclaiming nonbinary/gender nonconforming identities are already legitimately included, so there's no "banning" of trans athletes, as long as they're the correct sex. The greatest good of the greatest number is a reasonable utilitarian basis for decision-making.
Exactly. And though their exclusion in girls sports only affects the single individual, their inclusive affects multiple people in both locker rooms and on both competing teams. But the girls with vaginas are still expected to acquiesce to the girls with penises.... same as it ever was.
That is a really excellent analysis.
Heh good catch
A simple idea: all statements made by sex mimic advocacy are purely to waste time and deflect actual recognition that the men of concern are actually men.
Compulsions prevent people from doing things which counter the compulsion, and stating facts about sex mimicry is impossible for sex mimics, by definition, much as anorectics can’t speak about perception of body size, or alcoholics about the dangers of alcohol.
They have been manufacturing LGBT data since at least 1999. There is a study that was published in 2001 that is the first I am aware of that tracks the US LGBTQ population in US schools. They open with claiming there are 2 million LGBT student in schools. The study used a whopping 140 lgbt teens, 8 who were said to be 'trans.' A huge deal was made of it and the study was dubbed "Hatred in the Hallways." It used to be housed at the US Dept of Justice but has been removed (or maybe archived). It also sits at the UN. It is very eye opening. Global NGOs like Human Rights Watch were involved and a prominent US NGO called the Family Acceptance Project. This appears to be the roots of all this bogus manufactured 'data.' They cannot prove a thing without numbers and they have made it come true. https://margox.substack.com/p/traumatizing-american-families?r=1kuq0
Really good reporting and deductive reasoning
Believing that an obviously female bodied and medically transitioned MtF, in terms of overall phenotype and secondary sex characteristics, e g Rebekah Brusehoff, would fit in male sports is so absurdly dishonest it cannot be believed.
Apart from missing out on the camaraderie and socialization any other young woman would expect, forcing her to play male sports would be in all but the rarest of situations make her just a heavily bullied sexual assault target, and who will be just as uncompetitive against males as any other young woman who underwent a female puberty.
Y’all know exactly what you are doing, and will deny dozens of qualitative reports from real humans whenever it’s fun to do so but then weaponize a given post incarceration trans faker for all it’s worth whenever it can be used.
Just pure caste system nativism just like every other right wing movement.
Did you read the Washington Post article about Eliza Munshi? Had taken puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones so he outwardly had some feminine characteristics. Munshi was, in his own words, "welcomed" on the boys team. He expressed no negative experiences at all. No bullying, no harassment. He was accepted for he he is—a boy who identifies as a girl. Camaraderie, sense of belonging, physical challenge and skills acquisition—got it all. And if you know anything about track, you know that the boys and girls work out together and attend the same meets. Munshi was able to hang with friends of both sexes. He was not a top level discus performer. He could just be a mediocre athlete, or he may have hobbled his performance by suppressing his testosterone and taking estrogen which his male body is not designed for. That was his choice. Choices have consequences. What's your take on Munshi's experience? Also: the only "female bodied" people who have gone through "female puberty" are females. That's a biological term describing people whose body from conception followed a development pathway around the production of large gametes, eggs. A male can alter his hormones and get breast implants and facial surgery to appear more feminine. He is still a male who has altered his hormones and had facial surgery. He's not female. That's not "nativism" it's reality. Girls and women are female, the other kind of human. Like boys and men, girls and women deserve their own sports
I appreciate your consistency. Yesterday I saw a young trans woman on here asserting that she should be able to play on the girls’ team, but also that her FtM friend on T should also be able to play on the girls’ team because “it’s the only safe team for queer kids.” Which made me go “hm.”
I am genuinely curious, what is your take on which team trans boys should be be competing on?
Boys team. Socially that is their in group and the vast majority of the reason to even care about high school or grade school sports is camaraderie and exercise. And as long as they have medically transitioned even some, they will fit physically with the boys too.
Mack Beggs was an obvious example of this happening the “wrong” way. Also, TUEs for testosterone replacement are fully compatible with playing men’s sports, even outside of the trans context.
Tell that to Nikki Hiltz, Quinn, and the trans-identified female Swedish skier who is currently competing in the Winter Olympics on the women's team. All of them could have taken testosterone and tried out for the men's team. They know that, even juiced to the gills, they would have no career as a male athlete. The male-female performance gap is so wide and involves so many other factors than hormone levels, hormone tinkering is utterly ineffective at eliminating that sex gap, regardless of which direction you're going. TUEs for testosterone in men's sports are extremely rare. Exogenous testosterone in the male category "outside of the trans context" is called doping
Not really. You can look at the East German women. Kornelia Ender, for example, would have been third on the East German men’s olympic team in some events, which is about what you would expect given women’s lower sports participation levels but if biological advantages were neutralized. And the E German men were likely also on roids ironically.
Yes really. You're going to have to provide some actual stats on Kornelia Ender vs Olympic men's times. I'm glad you didn't mention the perennial example Chris Mosier, a trans-identified female who did not qualify but was given a place on an Olympic men's race walking team and, despite being roided, was two hours behind the top competitors. Iszac Henig, a trans-identified female swimmer, competed in the Ivy League at the same time as Lia Thomas. But there was zero outcry about Henig because, for the first year after she cut off her breasts, she continued to swim on the women's team (without T). She was one of top females in the conference. The second year she decided to join the men's team. She took T but merely participated on the men's team. Nowhere near competitive. In interviews, she admitted how hard this was to completely give up competitiveness.